Angels have free will, as we see in Revelation 12, but the question I have is do angels exist within time?  Or do they exist outside of time in the way that God does?  Sin is violence against the soul - does an angel necessarily have a soul simply because he exists or is he simply a fully-spiritual being without a soul?  If an angel exists within time, it seems that one could chose to fall at any time, but would that choice be irreversible - could an angel repent at all and if he could, would God receive it?  If angels are outside of time, the choice to fall was a single act of the will that has been chosen forever - without the opportunity for repentance.  Did angles fall only at the time where the choice was presented and the temptation to do so at a later time did not exist because of their mastery over their will?

angels...well, satan started out as an angel, no? is that not enough evidence?

i don't have time right now to read his comics - i think he might be a little correct, but a little sensational...

he has got one thing right -- we are saved BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE and not by works.

OOPS --- BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH

I no longer consider myself Protestant, because I am a catechumen in the Orthodox Church.  But even when I was a Protestant who somewhat enjoyed Jack Chick's tracts, I recognized that some of them were just a little extreme and silly.  Now that I'm becoming Orthodox, I think his work is absolutely ludicrous; and not ludicrous only, but offensive.  He doesn't even try to be historically accurate when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church.  The man and his work are jokes.  In one book, he says that Origen invented the Septuagint.  Any historian -- even Protestant historians -- knows that this is absolutely false, and that the Septuagint was the translation of the Old Testament commonly in use during the life of Christ.  Because he is so obviously far off the mark, I can only assume that he doesn't care about the facts but about bashing "those damned Papists."  To him, truth is irrelevant as long as what he says furthers the cause of drawning people away from the Roman Catholic Church.  Now I'm not saying we should all become Catholics, because after all I'd prefer we all be Orthodox; but he is attracting people with lies.  It's sickening.  He has tracts about Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Freemasons, and I believe Buddhism and other Hindu religions.  If he so blatantly lies about the Catholic Church, what's to keep him from lying about all these other religions or sects?  The man is Dan Brown without a high school education.

And sure, he may say that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, but what kind of faith lies about an entire church and the acts as though the people within that church never have any chance of going to heaven, ever, unless they utterly renounce almost every belief and practice of that church?  We should fear for his soul.

There you go Catholic Defender, you don't have to worry about offending people.  I did the job for you.

If I'm not mistaken, Grace, isn't the story of Satan turning on God a tradition of men?  If not, can anyone show me where it talks about Satan turning on God using the Bible (also him taking a third of the angels with him, if that was the number)? 

If it IS a tradition of men, which I am quite certain it is, but I could be wrong, then what do our Protestant brothers and sisters have to say about this 'tradition of men'?

And about Jack Chick... I would rather hold my opinions back, because they are anything but charitable.

Oh yea, hi Grace!

Jack Chick is a joke in our house... We were making up rules for some young men who were going to be our house guests from a sister church, and the list included things such as "No climbing out on the porch roof and jumping down without proper supervision" and "Soap is for external use only". Rule #23 was "Chick Tracts have been provided for your spiritual edification. If you have any more questions, don't come whining to us".

I think very few serious Protestants take Chick tracts seriously, but, there are lots of silly Protestants who do believe them. I think there's equal amounts of ridiculousness in all branches of the church, and stupid people believe stupid things, even if they do love God.

Well, since I killed the Chick thought...

Hmmm... How do we know angels have free will? I remember learning about this in 4th grade catechism class, so it's all a little sketchy, but... Well, actually, being a Calvinist (*watches everyone start sharpening knives*), I don't think we really have free will, so why should angels? But, that's a little beyond the point and I will write you a poem if you manage to stay away from that.

ANYWAYS, I was told and chose to believe that God's angels don't sin. Apparently they were able to choose to previously, but they don't sin now-- it is not in their nature; they don't have any desire to disobey God. I don't have any reason to doubt this, because the contrary is never mentioned in the Bible, (and also because I'm pretty sure my catechism teachers and father are brilliant) and don't you think it would be, especially since He says He'll send His angels to watch us? It would be super creepy to think they were watching us but could at any moment become perverse, but God didn't bother to tell us.

There are, obviously, fallen angels... but would God really keep angels that won't necessarily obey Him around in Heaven?

I hope I'm not implying motives.

Apparently they were able to choose to previously, but they don't sin now-- it is not in their nature; they don't have any desire to disobey God.

Oh, the confusion of natures and persons, of don't with can't, that undergirds so much of Calvinist thought.  :)

I get it, you're saying I should have said "I can't think" instead of "I don't think". *dies*

Oh... wait...

You know, maybe I'm not really a Calvinist; I appear to have a sense of humor.

You know I admire Christ so much. No matter what he went through. He always gave us a lesson, always had us think of ourselves not to worry for him. His strength then is one to surely last beyond our lifetimes. I am in awe. I feel sad at times that for us all he had to die, before we were ever born he knew he had to do this. It leaves me with feelings of honor too. I sit here and think how do you thank someone for that? And then I think I don't think I do the right thing by him, since I sin. But then I realize he knew that and he gave me life. I am here to spread his word. To hold my mission in him. It's just so much. Do you ever feel this way?

I will keep you in my prayers today as I am about to go to Mass. I will take it all to the Lord. May you feel his blessings and strength with you today. God Bless you.

Peace,
k

Well I'd love to get your take on my last post!

I'm Catholic now, but when I was Protestant I NEVER took Jack Chick seriously - nor do I personally know of any Protestants who do!  For some reason, his stuff continues to sell though, I just don't understand it.

 "I don't think we really have free will, so why should angels" - Han the Roo

well, Han, angels aren't humans. they're a different creation. so it doesn't matter whether or not humans have free will.

we do, though. i recommend you study your claivinism a little more. how can you miss the fall of man???!!!

oops...calvinism

ANGELS:

Imperfection is ascribed to them (Job 4:18; Matt. 24:36; 1 Pet. 1:12). As free-willed creatures, they may fall under temptation; and thus we read of "fallen angels." We can only guess at the cause and manner of their "fall." We know only that fallen angels "left their first estate" (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 12:7,9), and that they are "reserved unto judgement" (2 Pet. 2:4).

Grr.

Nothing and no one has free will apart from God.

If we have free will, it sure is lucky for us that people chose to crucify Christ. Phew, I wonder what God would have done if they hadn't. Wow, God is pretty lucky.

Good question, here is what the Catholic faith says to your second question. First, the angels that are in heaven which means that they have to be perfect. Note that whether in heaven or in hell an angel stays there for eternity, the can't change. An angel in heaven does have free will, but being perfect that means that the angel will always have to choose God. The angels in hell have free will but can never change where they are they are there forever.

-Gabe